I agree with the author of that article for the most part. I can't say too much about the japanese and korean clubs, but the chinese ones really bother me. I know it's important for people to keep their cultural identity, but the point of going to an overseas university is to get a good education and of course understand that particular country's culture. If asian students from overseas come to canada to study and only stick with other asians and join their clubs, it really won't be much different from staying in their own country. I also agree that when those asians graduate, it will be like a joke when they tell others that they went to a canadian university. Their english skills aren't up to par and they've learned nothing about canadian culture. So sad...
Like I said, the article stated that most of these clubs weren't even started or maintained by International Students.
We keep focusing on the practical "after they graduate" side of the argument. The social one is much more important.
Do you agree that it is a problem when large groups of people would rather live in their own little cultural worlds than participate in "regular student life"? Canadians like to pride themselves on being multicultural, but I'm not so sure multiculturalism always works. There may be plenty of cultures at SFU, but there isn't a lot of mingling.
I found myself agreeing with most of the points in McCullough's article but I agree with Vonnie that the "barely literate" line stuck out. It was unnecessary and using inflammatory language like that weakens his argument.
I've never said noone can't attack my beliefs, so don't infer that I'm hypocrite IVT, attack me all you want, I'm sure you know I like a good fight.
Primexx don't even make stupid claims that I hate everyone, theres a big difference between some people and everyone. Sure, that some people is a large enough number. I <3 insatiable
I'm not just talking about JJ's articles by the way, take a look at the peoples facebook notes hes commented on, and even private conversations I'm privvy to, which clearly you can't see or hear
...he dares not publish his true ignorance in the peak, he isn't even what I'd consider to be a republican, whether or not you believe the validity of my claim is up to you. I'll concede he is articulate, but wouldn't go as far as saying intelligent or smart
I do draw the line on airing peoples dirty laundry at some point.
Don't assume morro, that I'm a democrat, because of my womenly, or defencive of gays beliefs...why is it that conservatism, as a political ideology has anything to even do with gender or sexuality...?
He could be as much of an ass as you make him out to be, that doesn't automatically discredit his argument in the article though. Sure, if you can establish that the article stems from the same alleged bigotry as the information which I admittedly have not seen, but if there's an actual argument being put forward, then it should be taken as an argument just as made by anyone else.
Ether;37401 said:
I found myself agreeing with most of the points in McCullough's article but I agree with Vonnie that the "barely literate" line stuck out. It was unnecessary and using inflammatory language like that weakens his argument.
Would it help to know that the article was supposed to be provocative?
I'm rather disappointed by the response (or lack thereof) actually.
Did you see my comment about how hes just like Ann Coulter, saying things he can't actually mean, and knowing how awful it sounds just for the attention?
How does that make it okay, if the words are there? I don't for a minute think he believes all the stuff he says, but he means to say it.
And would you really dispute his other point, that there is an increasingly large population of Asian immigrants who are getting through whole degree programs with barely functional English skills? Do you disagree that this is a social problem, when they start moving into the workforce, and trying to interact with coworkers and customers?
are you implying that Asian immigrants have found a leeway to get through their degree problems? or are you just trying to say their English sucked.. but still got through their program with much of the same credentials as you do?
either way.. it's a pretty impressive statement.. after all what does it say about our education system that allows people to get through and out with barely functional English skills? and what does it say about Asian immigrants who can get pass this language dysfunction and still receive an university degree? =P
but in all honesty... who gives a fu*k about the N number of clubs for the cause of XYZ.. so long as they don't mess with your life.. don't mess with theirs..
Everyone insults arts students...but I haven't seen many people in any of my classes who couldn't speak english.
Is this an exaggerated claim, or are there actually students who graduate who can't speak english, well, or at all...they must all be in the sciences ;)
That's because Arts students only write essays. English, Philosophy, History, Psychology, etc.
There's a reason it's called Arts and Social Sciences. The ASSC department is all about writing good essays and being able to speak fluently. The Science departments are about thinking and solving problems.
Anyways, most international students don't study abroad to get an Arts degree considering they pay 3x as much as a normal student. That's practically a waste of money. International students (mostly Asian including Indians) study overseas to get a BS.
You see, International students don't go for an Arts degree because besides the fact that it's almost impossible to get a job with an Arts degree, why would Employer X hire International Student Y with broken English and a accent when they could hire Domestic Student Z that can speak fluently? Any Employer looking for a Arts graduate is looking for someone that can speak and write English fluently. Also considering that there's thousands of unemployed Arts students, they have many choices over the international student with broken English.
Another reason International students don't go for Arts degrees because they have to learn something radically different. English? A different language. History? A different history. Literature? A different literature. and etc. But sciences are universal. There aren't cultural differences on how to calculate some mathematical expression, 1 + 1 is still 2 in Canada or China.
Chinese immigrants are always at the top of Math and Science courses in High School precisely because of this.
International Science students don't need to know fluent English, as long as they know how to apply this formula and understand this theory, it's all good. How often does a scientist need to make contact with customers? They just need to stay in the lab and research and develop stuff and let the marketing guys advertise their stuff. They just need to know the science lingo.
i've seen people equally unemployable with BSc, as with arts, i can see a difference with post graduate studies, someone with a MSc or pHd in a science will clearly outearn some arts people in many situations
you're in for trouble working on the assumption you'll have automatically have a job, even more so than an arts person, ive seen people with BSc struggling or with shitty jobs.
Anyways, most international students don't study abroad to get an Arts degree considering they pay 3x as much as a normal student. That's practically a waste of money. International students (mostly Asian including Indians) study overseas to get a BS.
You see, International students don't go for an Arts degree because besides the fact that it's almost impossible to get a job with an Arts degree, why would Employer X hire International Student Y with broken English and a accent when they could hire Domestic Student Z that can speak fluently? Any Employer looking for a Arts graduate is looking for someone that can speak and write English fluently. Also considering that there's thousands of unemployed Arts students, they have many choices over the international student with broken English.
Chinese immigrants are always at the top of Math and Science courses in High School precisely because of this.
When most international students do that, they might as well stay in their home country for university. But of course many of them are not accepted back in their home country due to the extreme competition, so they go overseas. This of course excludes international students who go to top universities in the US and UK, where the reputation of the university is the most important.
An employer would sometimes prefer hiring an international student because they believe that the student can speak both english and their home language as well. That's also part of the mentality of the students themselves, but of course that is all shot down when they only hang out with their asian buddies and refuse to speak english.
Asians who recently came are at the top of high school mathematics department because the standard and level of difficulty is truly much lower in canada compared to asia...
International Science students don't need to know fluent English, as long as they know how to apply this formula and understand this theory, it's all good. How often does a scientist need to make contact with customers? They just need to stay in the lab and research and develop stuff and let the marketing guys advertise their stuff. They just need to know the science lingo.
Wrong.
People in sciences still need to work in groups and collaborate with other people. They still need to publish coherent papers, and they still need to communicate their ideas effectively.
This is the tale of three international students.
There once was a software engineering group. Three out of the six members were from countries other than Canada.
The first international student could not speak English at all. Nor could she program at all. When asked questions like "can you program in Java", all she could manage was to reply "Java?? Java??". She was about as useful as an oversized parrot.
The second international student spoke English slightly better. However, he could not write documentation without coming up with seriously flawed sentences that needed to be rewritten by the other members of the group. Actually, he wasn't much of a programmer either, but the biggest problem was that he couldn't communicate with the team.
The third international student spoke English. He cooperated with the team, programmed well, and tried his hardest. The team could always count on him to understand and do his share of the work.
Now, the first international student was brought to the attention of the Professor, who kicked her out of the course and possibly the school. I don't know, we never saw her again after the first week.
The second international student stayed with the group to the end. However, all of his work had to be rewritten and redone by the other members of the group. By the end of the term, he had contributed no work to the project. He overcame his poor mark on the term project by miraculously pulling off one of the highest marks on the final exam... We still don't know how he did it.
The third international student and the rest of the team spent the whole term doing their own work, and the work for the other two international students... and living in the computer lab in a makeshift hut built with pizza boxes and pop cans.
Comments
The social one is much more important.
Do you agree that it is a problem when large groups of people would rather live in their own little cultural worlds than participate in "regular student life"? Canadians like to pride themselves on being multicultural, but I'm not so sure multiculturalism always works. There may be plenty of cultures at SFU, but there isn't a lot of mingling.
I found myself agreeing with most of the points in McCullough's article but I agree with Vonnie that the "barely literate" line stuck out. It was unnecessary and using inflammatory language like that weakens his argument.
I don't know, and haven't spoken to any of my chinese or white neighbors, its the nature of our society, in years.
I'm not even really pro-club, just not anti-club for these reasons, I did make that post a long time ago, about clubs and racial pride on campus.
I'm rather disappointed by the response (or lack thereof) actually.
How does that make it okay, if the words are there? I don't for a minute think he believes all the stuff he says, but he means to say it.
That does not make it right.
either way.. it's a pretty impressive statement.. after all what does it say about our education system that allows people to get through and out with barely functional English skills? and what does it say about Asian immigrants who can get pass this language dysfunction and still receive an university degree? =P
but in all honesty... who gives a fu*k about the N number of clubs for the cause of XYZ.. so long as they don't mess with your life.. don't mess with theirs..
Is this an exaggerated claim, or are there actually students who graduate who can't speak english, well, or at all...they must all be in the sciences ;)
There's a reason it's called Arts and Social Sciences. The ASSC department is all about writing good essays and being able to speak fluently. The Science departments are about thinking and solving problems.
Anyways, most international students don't study abroad to get an Arts degree considering they pay 3x as much as a normal student. That's practically a waste of money. International students (mostly Asian including Indians) study overseas to get a BS.
You see, International students don't go for an Arts degree because besides the fact that it's almost impossible to get a job with an Arts degree, why would Employer X hire International Student Y with broken English and a accent when they could hire Domestic Student Z that can speak fluently? Any Employer looking for a Arts graduate is looking for someone that can speak and write English fluently. Also considering that there's thousands of unemployed Arts students, they have many choices over the international student with broken English.
Another reason International students don't go for Arts degrees because they have to learn something radically different. English? A different language. History? A different history. Literature? A different literature. and etc. But sciences are universal. There aren't cultural differences on how to calculate some mathematical expression, 1 + 1 is still 2 in Canada or China.
Chinese immigrants are always at the top of Math and Science courses in High School precisely because of this.
International Science students don't need to know fluent English, as long as they know how to apply this formula and understand this theory, it's all good. How often does a scientist need to make contact with customers? They just need to stay in the lab and research and develop stuff and let the marketing guys advertise their stuff. They just need to know the science lingo.
you're in for trouble working on the assumption you'll have automatically have a job, even more so than an arts person, ive seen people with BSc struggling or with shitty jobs.
An employer would sometimes prefer hiring an international student because they believe that the student can speak both english and their home language as well. That's also part of the mentality of the students themselves, but of course that is all shot down when they only hang out with their asian buddies and refuse to speak english.
Asians who recently came are at the top of high school mathematics department because the standard and level of difficulty is truly much lower in canada compared to asia...
People in sciences still need to work in groups and collaborate with other people. They still need to publish coherent papers, and they still need to communicate their ideas effectively.
This is the tale of three international students.
There once was a software engineering group. Three out of the six members were from countries other than Canada.
The first international student could not speak English at all. Nor could she program at all. When asked questions like "can you program in Java", all she could manage was to reply "Java?? Java??". She was about as useful as an oversized parrot.
The second international student spoke English slightly better. However, he could not write documentation without coming up with seriously flawed sentences that needed to be rewritten by the other members of the group. Actually, he wasn't much of a programmer either, but the biggest problem was that he couldn't communicate with the team.
The third international student spoke English. He cooperated with the team, programmed well, and tried his hardest. The team could always count on him to understand and do his share of the work.
Now, the first international student was brought to the attention of the Professor, who kicked her out of the course and possibly the school. I don't know, we never saw her again after the first week.
The second international student stayed with the group to the end. However, all of his work had to be rewritten and redone by the other members of the group. By the end of the term, he had contributed no work to the project. He overcame his poor mark on the term project by miraculously pulling off one of the highest marks on the final exam... We still don't know how he did it.
The third international student and the rest of the team spent the whole term doing their own work, and the work for the other two international students... and living in the computer lab in a makeshift hut built with pizza boxes and pop cans.
Engineering is probably the worst, in this respect.
anybody in that club?
I'll see you at the GM today :)
The GM was fun though :) Big LOL at the name-game-icebreaker thing.. I was in the "All Douchebags Have Gay Sex" group xP
You gonna be at the table anytime soon? Maybe I'll try to stalk you then >=]