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Transexual/transgender - What do you think?
I'm creating this thread to try to separate the discussion. This is a seperate issue from gay marriage.
It may seem odd, coming from an atheist, but I'm very wary of this new trend towards completely accepting transgender as a legitimate orientation.
I just have a hard time with the notion that a person with a major identity disorder, and possibly a wish for self-mutilation, is considered perfectly sane. This "man born into a woman's body" or "woman born into a man's body" stuff sounds not at all different from "Napoleon born in a man's body" or "Jesus reborn in a child." And if Napoleon maintains that he wants his penis removed to better feel like his "real" self, do we consider this compelling? I hope we don't. He may claim that it will make them feel better. While this is a very tenuous claim, according to post-op surveys, it's also not the point.
There's just no evidence that this feeling corresponds to any biological reality. And that's fine, as far as it goes. I don't think it's particularly important to civil rights whether being gay is biological or a choice. However, when we are talking about hacking off a person's penis and testicles, or chemically mutating a vagina into some wacky simulacrum of a penis, I think it's a very important detail. At that point, how is the feeling of being a man trapped in a woman's body, real and powerful though it may be, any different than the equally real and powerful feeling of the man who thinks he's Napoleon, and wants his right arm cut off, because it's haunted?
It just seems to me that while a large portion of this society is most concerned with seeming accepting of all lifestyles, there are people who are living with severe mental disorders, and not receiving the help that they so obviously need. That's considered progressive? To allow our own societal bent towards live-and-let-live to leave sick people without help? I don't have any negative feelings towards these people, unless you count sympathy as negative. But I don't see them as being dramatically different than anyone else with a profound malfunction in their sense of self. And it doesn't seem very compassionate, to me, to pretend that they're perfectly healthy while they amputate their genetalia.
There are a lot of fancy, and utterly meaningless, terms thrown around with this issue. They mostly exist to obscure the point, which is that there is a certain demographic which asks doctors to mutilate their genetalia. And we are going in a direction which says that it's not OK to question the wisdom of that. I try to be as open-minded as possible but, as Richard Dawkins says, let's not be so open minded that our brains fall out. Some people with severe mental disorders need to be protected from themselves. And people who fantasize about a better life after amputating a part of their body, I think, very clearly fall into that group.
It may seem odd, coming from an atheist, but I'm very wary of this new trend towards completely accepting transgender as a legitimate orientation.
I just have a hard time with the notion that a person with a major identity disorder, and possibly a wish for self-mutilation, is considered perfectly sane. This "man born into a woman's body" or "woman born into a man's body" stuff sounds not at all different from "Napoleon born in a man's body" or "Jesus reborn in a child." And if Napoleon maintains that he wants his penis removed to better feel like his "real" self, do we consider this compelling? I hope we don't. He may claim that it will make them feel better. While this is a very tenuous claim, according to post-op surveys, it's also not the point.
There's just no evidence that this feeling corresponds to any biological reality. And that's fine, as far as it goes. I don't think it's particularly important to civil rights whether being gay is biological or a choice. However, when we are talking about hacking off a person's penis and testicles, or chemically mutating a vagina into some wacky simulacrum of a penis, I think it's a very important detail. At that point, how is the feeling of being a man trapped in a woman's body, real and powerful though it may be, any different than the equally real and powerful feeling of the man who thinks he's Napoleon, and wants his right arm cut off, because it's haunted?
It just seems to me that while a large portion of this society is most concerned with seeming accepting of all lifestyles, there are people who are living with severe mental disorders, and not receiving the help that they so obviously need. That's considered progressive? To allow our own societal bent towards live-and-let-live to leave sick people without help? I don't have any negative feelings towards these people, unless you count sympathy as negative. But I don't see them as being dramatically different than anyone else with a profound malfunction in their sense of self. And it doesn't seem very compassionate, to me, to pretend that they're perfectly healthy while they amputate their genetalia.
There are a lot of fancy, and utterly meaningless, terms thrown around with this issue. They mostly exist to obscure the point, which is that there is a certain demographic which asks doctors to mutilate their genetalia. And we are going in a direction which says that it's not OK to question the wisdom of that. I try to be as open-minded as possible but, as Richard Dawkins says, let's not be so open minded that our brains fall out. Some people with severe mental disorders need to be protected from themselves. And people who fantasize about a better life after amputating a part of their body, I think, very clearly fall into that group.
Comments
DIE, HATER!!!
P.S. I agree
now since u said they may be in need of help or w/e that may be the case and im sure they have friends like u do when their in need they go to and get their own advice their own way, it seems to me ur tryn to define "normal" here and u cant seem to understand or even come close to what goes on in their heads which u will never thus it dosnt seem right to u
maybe tho their doing exactly what they want
and at the end of the day i dont think u need to worry about them too much ... but the guys who made BME Pain Olympics... well those guys need help
do you hate me?
By the way, Alex Shih, if that is really you... Disgusting... I am more concerned about the possible health problems associated with these procedures. Also, that people like me will be forced to be "tolerant" of people like you and treat you like a normal human being even though I do not feel at all comfortable going anywhere near you. In a sense, I will be forced to forfeit my rights to distance myself from you so you can have your rights, otherwise I will be branded as a bigot.
There are an astounding amount of cases where people were assigned to one sex by their parents, raised as that sex and then the child feels their entire life that they are the other sex ( not knowing any of this ) .
I know what I have just said doesn't apply to some cases as mentioned above, like people who were born one gender...but doesnt this speak enough about how biology is linked to sexuality?
I mean honestly if sexuality is a choice, then how come grown adults cannot be convinced to change their sexuality permanately? I'm a heterosexual female, I watch this lesbian show called the L world about a bunch of lesbians and I haven't yet had the desire to eat another chick out yet.
I'm just saying, neurophysiology plays a giant role in sexuality, it's proven, hands down. The actual effects of it are not established but there are genetic links to sexuality. Neurophysiological issues can cause these problems...I mean honestly do you think many males who want to be females want to be females cause they can look exactly like a hot chick? I'm sure most of them realize they're going to look like a tranny anyway after. So why would the do this unless something inside of them really was compelling them too?
You know it does sound fucked up that people want to do these kind of things, but noone thinks, what would want to make them do this, instead of just WHY.
I mean honestly it's not like they think theyre going to be able to fool people, I'm sure a MTF transexual is going to have issues trying to 'trick' a guy into thinking hes a real female and then the guy finds out his 'vagina' clearly isn't as wide and deep as other girls. Also that small thing about never being able to get pregnant, the broad shoulders, etc etc etc.
These people don't need help, they need people to not judge them. How many animals in nature are hermaphrodites, or how about all the animals that can self inseminate themselves...gender and sexuality are more than just the human "male + female = stick it in"--this is proven in nature.
I know the religious fundamentals say god made humans perfect, adam and eve. So why did he make some animals in the animal kingdom capable of self inseminating themselves or having both sets of reproductive organs...?
I mean the entire difference between our concepts of male and female can be broken down into two categories:
Having a penis or vagina--more specifically testicles or ovaries. This in turn obviously has a biological effect of making you attracted to a gender?
Next, the social ramifications of having those parts mentioned above. If you are finding you are attracted to females and are a female, you may feel like a male (I'm over simplifying this in purpose, there are several more social effects that should be mentioned)
That said, my theory does not account for people who have a sex change and maintain relationships with the same gender as before. Like your example of heterosexual males maintaining relationships with females post sex change. But you can't deny there are males who try to be females to have relationships with males--never having attraction to females to begin with. They could just stay gay males but feel they are women.
We're trying to figure out in my opinion, the neurophysiological basis or a construct that is social and genetic. Sure there may be schizo male with a beard who believes hes Paris Hilton, and can back it up showing that he was herpes as well. He matches the social construct of being crazy, but I think there are biological bases for these feelings as well. (sometimes...?)
As mentioned in my reference to gender reassigned people who never know their true gender yet somehow sometimes know or think they are the gender they genetically were. I know I'm deviating from people who never were gender reassigned, but I'm trying to relate to how these people somehow know they were another gender without being able to see it with their eyes or hear it. You can never get off the fence, because you are never on the begin with. From the moment an egg is fertilized you are either genetically male or female--there is no in between. So someone with testicles inside their body but with a mostly developed vagina and a tiny penis will have the penis removed yet remain a genetic, and gondal male. Their androgen insensitivity that created the whole mess will allow them to develop and look like a female, yet still be a genetic male.
The scary thing is, one of you may very well have a girlfriend in the future who looks, sounds, smells, and thinks she is a girl, yet is a genetic male. And is that really scary...? I mean looks, sounds, walks, acts...is this person a male or female? This is where gender, the social construct comes into play
Thats why gender reassignment is so risky because you don't know what they are going to feel like or how they are going to develop.
For example, someone with ovaries who has a ambiguous gential region. The only reason this is happening is a hormonal dischord. They will develop a male body structure due to the imbalance. Regardless of whether you build the body so they have a vagina they are going to be developing male body parts. So if you make them a male, they still have the ovaries which will release hormones that will stimulate the body in female ways; albeit not at full functionality.
Or someone with testicles who has ambiguous genitals, with your theory you would just make them a male. Except they are androgen insensitive [for now] and female quantities and female hormones may or may not be released during puberty.
It's really not clear cut, because in each scenario they have a mix of the genetic and hormonal components.
i've done research on thailand's transgendered population and it sickens me how people think less of them.. perceiving them as nothing more than entertainment or some kind of object to be looked at and never treated to be human... many are never given the opportunities to find a reputable job and hence resort to make a living in the red light districts.. and who's fault is that? i wouldn't be so rash to conclude that it's a mental disorder.. rather i would say it's the society's social construct that prevents people from accepting people who fall in between the gender spectrum.. there has never been questions about what's male and what's female until these people started emerging.. and because we cannot put them on either side of the spectrum.. the society decides to oust them altogether.. rejecting their place within it.. then technically speaking... isn't that also a form of mental disorder? when we are taught acknowledge the inbetweens in political spectrums.. color spectrums.. you name it.. why denounce those who fall in the middle of the gender one?
bottom line is.. i feel for these people and i don't object to sex changes so long as the doctor conducts the operation in a safe manner and the that individual knows what they're doing is what makes them happy... so if Napoleon wants to hack off his penis cause it makes him a happier man... so be it
You also say you cant see any reason for someone to be uncomfortable with their gender...and you are exactly right, YOU can't see any reason, you aren't them.
Sure I may be wrong with everything I think on this subject, but before you come to a conclusion for yourself I wish you would go and talk to someone who is 'gender confused' and see what they have to say about it. After all, you did say you cant see any reason, so why not go ask someone before having a conclusion at all?
I'm open to the fact I could be wrong, are you?
A mental disorder can only be defined as such if it causes direct distress for the person with whom the disorder is associated with, or other people. You might think that transgendered individuals are fucked in the head, but as long as they're fine and dandy with it, they don't need any help. It's like a person who has a fetish for women's underwear. If he's going around, breaking into people's houses, being violent in order to steal some undies, that would be a mental disorder. Now, if he decides to head down to Wal-Mart to buy some women's underwear and bathes himself in them, while he isn't exactly "normal" by our standards, he certainly doesn't need a mental health professional to tell him he's crazy.
From what I understand, becoming a transsexual is actually the remedy for a mental disorder, known as Gender Identity Disorder. GID consists of a "strong and persistent cross-gender identification", results in "persistent discomfort with an individuals sex or sense of inappropriateness in the gender role of that sex", and the "disturbance causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning."
Those are the criteria needed to be diagnosed with Gender Identity Disorder, which, from what I'm reading online, is usually one of the requirements for sex reassignment therapy. Of course, people can fake it, but precautions are taken. So if you look at it the other way, becoming a transsexual individual may actually be aiding in their mental health, as opposed to being a burden.
I'm not saying that your findings are wrong, but there always is another side to the story. I'm also guessing some of the dissatisfaction was due to the "complications". All I'm pointing out is that there is the possibility that people remain happy in their "new" state. The other alternative would be to stick with Gender Identity Disorder, and try to work that out. Remember, these people are generally depressed and distressed because of their biologically assigned gender. Besides trying psychotherapy, what else could they do? I wouldn't suppose you'd stick them on meds.
I'm pretty open to being wrong on this issue, and in fact I'd kind of like to be, since it would take me out of line with so many fundies. On the other hand, I just have a base level problem with the idea that amputation is a valid psychological treatment. Your link is actually a pretty famous study, I think, and one of the main pillars of the other side of the argument. There is the sort of "if it works" argument, which is also used for electro-convulsive therapy, which says that even if it's odd and disturbing, even if it's not really fixing the problem, you can't argue with the results. The difference is that, unlike with ECT, it's not really been proven that it does work, at least no proven definitively. Yet.
As to what the alternatives would be, I honestly don't know. As someone who's been psychologically medicated in the past (SSRI's for my mildish OCD,) I can tell you that putting them on meds is not at all an unreasonable idea.
There seems to be generally more satisfaction with FtM than inversely spun.
It's really hard to back any of this up without spending hours going through journal articles and texts cause whenever you type the word transsexual in a search engine all you really get is porn.
Womens studies department of SFU actually had a giant transgender conference at Harbour Center. It was mainly made up of FtM and none of them seemed mentally ill to me, in fact a lot of them seemed happy, functioning, normal and rather intelligent people. People with PHd's included. It was called the transsomatechnics conference I think.
"As Harry Benjamin wrote,[...] Crucially, the
suitable candidate also passed perfectly as either gender. These accounts dovetail
neatly with the increased emphasis in the post-war era on consuming the means to
transform and perfect the physical body, as a symbol of one’s internal aspirationalism. "
http://www.sfu.ca/womens-studies/rwwp_conference/Abstracts/documents/AizuraAbstract.pdf
Just how I mentioned that if they look like a tranny afterwards like most MtF they are still going to be looked down upon, and their original goal not fully attained as they don't look like a female even if they have the altered parts. As mag_bastard said also the complications post-op with MtF could contribute additionally to the dissatisfaction.
I didn't actually attend the conference lectures and they are not posted online yet, but from the few interactions and observations I did have over the few days I was working there they seemed like well adjusted people, happy to be in the presence of others like them.
I guess what I had quoted somewhat supports your theory, cause are they any better off post op? But from what I had seen these people did not seem disatisfied, depressed, bitter, or depressed. It's hard to describe what you see there from our perspectives but I saw this MtF and just the energy s/he gave off seemed like s/he was very comfortable in their own (new) skin.