^ Changing my answer to this because it's shorter and basically accomplishes the same thing. ^
I like the cut of your jib PhilB.
Shi2;47211 said:
There is not any direct evidence for the non-existence
As Phil addressed, this is the most ridiculous claim I have ever heard. How does this work then, you have to prove everything does not exist for it to be valid? You can't prove what is not there.
And this is where the thread becomes to a crashing halt because they can't advance their argument any further.
People are holding a belief, that in effect forces everyone else to belief it, because its a universal claim. How exactly then is the burden not on them?
So, I have to prove to them I'm not going to hell based on reasons I don't believe in? Its enough for me to say I don't believe, thus I'm not going to hell, because it does not exist.
How can someone prove that something does not exist? You can't prove that something doesn't exist, because there would be no proof to find. This does not work inversely, I don't have to prove that god does not exist, it's up to someone claiming it does exist to prove it's existence.
to all the internet forum tough talking pro-evolution peoples thrashing teh religious people:
First off, I am pro-evolution, and i do not believe in religion at all, but....
everytime this debate comes up, its like a significant amount of the people on the side of science don't even know anything about science other than what they heard from the sour grapevine.
thats because science is an abstract concept and religion/god aren't. despite how much it may pain you to realize, religion / god evolved with us (ie religious people were selected for by natural selection in various cultures) to the point where even now its inherent to each and every one of us. wtf are you gonna say if a bear (or its arch nemesis: THE LION) gets all up on you? "OH lets go all you muscel cellz! convert dat gLOLcose into some 2x pyROFLvate and lets get CITRIC ACID CYCEL. DO IT UP BOIZ!" . shut up you'll be praying.
you can't just say its worthless, thats just showing your own ignorance in my eyes and probably the majority of our world. This "illogical" concept has driven our history to where we are now and probably will until we are gone from the face of existence. Its bigger than science and always will be. So show some respect
that said, I don't believe in the creation theory at all, cause you get hotter ladies when you all about the theory of origin :D.
to all the internet forum tough talking pro-evolution peoples thrashing teh religious people:
First off, I am pro-evolution, and i do not believe in religion at all, but....
everytime this debate comes up, its like a significant amount of the people on the side of science don't even know anything about science other than what they heard from the sour grapevine.
thats because science is an abstract concept and religion/god aren't. despite how much it may pain you to realize, religion / god evolved with us (ie religious people were selected for by natural selection in various cultures) to the point where even now its inherent to each and every one of us. wtf are you gonna say if a bear (or its arch nemesis: THE LION) gets all up on you? "OH lets go all you muscel cellz! convert dat gLOLcose into some 2x pyROFLvate and lets get CITRIC ACID CYCEL. DO IT UP BOIZ!" . shut up you'll be praying.
you can't just say its worthless, thats just showing your own ignorance in my eyes and probably the majority of our world. This "illogical" concept has driven our history to where we are now and probably will until we are gone from the face of existence. Its bigger than science and always will be. So show some respect
that said, I don't believe in the creation theory at all, cause you get hotter ladies when you all about the theory of origin :D.
Why do you find it necessary to respect something that is flawed?
to all the internet forum tough talking pro-evolution peoples thrashing teh religious people:
First off, I am pro-evolution, and i do not believe in religion at all, but....
everytime this debate comes up, its like a significant amount of the people on the side of science don't even know anything about science other than what they heard from the sour grapevine.
thats because science is an abstract concept and religion/god aren't. despite how much it may pain you to realize, religion / god evolved with us (ie religious people were selected for by natural selection in various cultures) to the point where even now its inherent to each and every one of us. wtf are you gonna say if a bear (or its arch nemesis: THE LION) gets all up on you? "OH lets go all you muscel cellz! convert dat gLOLcose into some 2x pyROFLvate and lets get CITRIC ACID CYCEL. DO IT UP BOIZ!" . shut up you'll be praying.
you can't just say its worthless, thats just showing your own ignorance in my eyes and probably the majority of our world. This "illogical" concept has driven our history to where we are now and probably will until we are gone from the face of existence. Its bigger than science and always will be. So show some respect
that said, I don't believe in the creation theory at all, cause you get hotter ladies when you all about the theory of origin :D.
In what sense are we disrespecting it? Religion is a tool of man, so like any other ideas, it should be open to criticism. Religion has gotten a whole class of respect and it shouldn't.
I can say that God is an abstraction of David Blaine and chances are people will be offended. However, what about the other side of the spectrum? Atheists are constantly discriminated against, being called immoral, and unethical human beings that doesn't belong in a society. I find that offensive, but do you think religious people care when we pull the offensive card? Of course not. Even the bible condones killing us.
Also, why the hell would you be praying if a lion attacks you? That's a horrible example. The pilot responsible for landing the plane in the Hudson river wasn't praying, he was doing what he was trained for.
Science is central to human progress, not religion. Religion did not bring us to where we are today. Religion was responsible for the dark ages, the crusades, witch hunt, inquisition. So yes, I am going to say that religion is illogical and useless. It enforces a dogmatic society and hinders scientific thinking.
In what sense are we disrespecting it? Religion is a tool of man, so like any other ideas, it should be open to criticism. Religion has gotten a whole class of respect and it shouldn't.
I can say that God is an abstraction of David Blaine and chances are people will be offended. However, what about the other side of the spectrum? Atheists are constantly discriminated against, being called immoral, and unethical human beings that doesn't belong in a society. I find that offensive, but do you think religious people care when we pull the offensive card? Of course not. Even the bible condones killing us.
Also, why the hell would you be praying if a lion attacks you? That's a horrible example. The pilot responsible for landing the plane in the Hudson river wasn't praying, he was doing what he was trained for.
Science is central to human progress, not religion. Religion did not bring us to where we are today. Religion was responsible for the dark ages, the crusades, witch hunt, inquisition. So yes, I am going to say that religion is illogical and useless. It enforces a dogmatic society and hinders scientific thinking.
[sarcasm] hey now, play nice if it wasn't for religion how could a 50+year old prophet marry a 9year old child? i mean think, what better get out of jail free card could u get!!! furthermore, think of all the jews that would be running around if it wasn't for religion. [/sarcasm]
everytime this debate comes up, its like a significant amount of the people on the side of science don't even know anything about science other than what they heard from the sour grapevine.
thats because science is an abstract concept and religion/god aren't. despite how much it may pain you to realize, religion / god evolved with us (ie religious people were selected for by natural selection in various cultures) to the point where even now its inherent to each and every one of us. wtf are you gonna say if a bear (or its arch nemesis: THE LION) gets all up on you? "OH lets go all you muscel cellz! convert dat gLOLcose into some 2x pyROFLvate and lets get CITRIC ACID CYCEL. DO IT UP BOIZ!" . shut up you'll be praying.
You owe me a new irony meter, you just blew my old one up. Seriously, read what the fuck you just wrote. Read it aloud to yourself. Do it you stupid shitheel, I'll wait. Okay, that thing you just read? That's called "incoherent bullshit". Kindly keep it off my internet from now on. Also, don't reproduce; religion isn't hardwired into the brain but stupidity just might be. Let's not take the chance on whatever half witted monstrosity your myriad chromosomes might produce.
hilolsup;54292 said:
you can't just say its worthless,
First, yes we can. Second, no one actually does. We're happy to acknowledge that religion provides a pretext for people to do nice things and make themselves happy. We just also acknowledge that it's just as effective an excuse for child rape and genocide and that you don't actually need an excuse for the good stuff unless you're a terrible person. It's amazing how proud religious people are to declare that without being bribed and threatened by an omnipotent dictator they'd be bloodthirsty sheep-fucking barbarians.
hilolsup;54292 said:
thats just showing your own ignorance in my eyes and probably the majority of our world. This "illogical" concept has driven our history to where we are now
Yes, and look where it got us: Crusades, ethnic cleansing, the holocaust, Israel/Palestine, two wars in Iraq, 9/11, 7/7, genocide in Darfur, and the fucking Narnia books. Oh, and some nice paintings and good music. So that's something at least.
Science has given us vaccination, indoor plumbing, condoms, cell phones, laptops, brain surgery, antibiotics, antiretrovirals, tylenol, adderall, DVDs, MP3s, TV, KY, and MOTHERFUCKING SPACE TRAVEL. The trade-off? Powerful weapons which almost no one would ever dream of using if not for religion. And the only defenses against those same weapons. You certainly didn't get to share your ill-formed ramblings with the general public through the power of prayer (though I encourage you to use this method exclusively in the future).
hilolsup;54292 said:
Its bigger than science and always will be. So show some respect
Not if we can help it. The simple fact is that religion is no longer compatible with civilization. Jesus, Allah, Vishnu, and Jewish God were okay when they were the best we had, but now it's either us or them. A world without religion is not some joyless dystopia with no morality or beauty. Its the exact opposite. And even if we don't believe in magic, we can still look at the Sistine Chapel, and still listen to the mass in B minor and you can still read the Narnia books if you absolutely fucking must. All we have to lose is the superstition, the hatred, and our fear of the dark.
Yes, and look where it got us: Crusades, ethnic cleansing, the holocaust, Israel/Palestine, two wars in Iraq, 9/11, 7/7, genocide in Darfur, and the fucking Narnia books. Oh, and some nice paintings and good music. So that's something at least.
how was the holocaust caused by religion? Hitler sent priests to the camps.
how was the holocaust caused by religion? Hitler sent priests to the camps.
You are an idiot.
This is debatable. I haven't read too much into religion and the holocaust so I can't say too much. Hitler's anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education. Due to his involvement with the church, he began enacting doctrines of the Church as law. He outlawed all abortion, raged a death war on all homosexuals, and demanded corporal punishment in schools and home. Hitler used religion for his own political expedience.
The Pope was a great friend of Hitler's, and the German Catholic Church celebrated his birthday as a national religious holiday up to the very end. I'd say the Nazis were intimately tied to religion.
Trap sprung IVT, you glorious moron. Regardless of his own religious beliefs, Hitler was only able create Nazi Germany by leveraging a powerful antisemitism that Christianity had been pushing for centuries. Catholics and protestants were both pretty fond of jew-killing, and the Catholic Church got VERY friendly with Hitler because of said jew-killing and presumably a shared love of fascism and flamboyant costumes. And yet again, irrespective of Hitler's personal beliefs, the soldiers belt buckles were embossed with the words "Gott Mit Uns" for a reason; to exploit the homicidal bent of christianity.
I'll save you the trouble of posting a "no true scotsman" fallacy; they were real christians, probably more so than you in that their theology was more consistent. And even if their beliefs were a perversion of the original message, the fact that the message is open to such subversion conclusively dismisses the idea that religion is a source of morality. And even if it was, that wouldn't make it true.
Which brings us back to our original point: The simple fact is that science does everything that religion only ever pretended to do, and in fact does things the prophets never imagined. Curing blindness and paralysis and even raising the dead are routine procedures now. Science also revealed an entire universe that no religion even hinted at. Defend religion all you want, you owe far more to science than you ever will to any god.
Edit:
IVT;54401 said:
All that was to get votes. No more, no less.
What election was the pope trying to win? You can't write off the Church's voluntary involvement the same way. And in any case, the fact that it fucking worked is rather the point. Christianity was instrumental in building the Nazi regime, that's the whole point we're trying to make here. If people literally turn into fucking nazis because of your religion, your religion is evil.
people turned to Nazism because Hitler promised "all things to all men"
and Germany was in the shit even worse than the USA is now. Hitler found a scapegoat in the Jews and used his charisma to turn people against them. It didn't make shit all of a difference what religion the people followed. Hitler suckered them in. Once the Enabling Act was passed, there was no stopping it.
Nazism had nothing to do with Christianity. The deal with the Vatican was to make the Pope get off Hitler's back.
Yeah, I mentioned it in passing and IVT jumped on it because he has some stock apologetics for it. This is less of a Godwin though, this isn't saying "You know who else was christian? That's right! Hitler!" This is a historically verified observation that Nazi doctrine capitalized on centuries of antisemitism that was a specifically christian invention. You'll notice IVT's only argument amounts so saying "nuh-uh." The history of christian persecution of jews in Europe up to and including the insane rantings of Martin Luther, speaks for itself.
But let's say that IVT is right, and the entire recorded history of Christianity didn't happen. Germany was a very religious country at the time and somehow this religion failed to prevent the holocaust. So at best it's useless. Of course, history did happen and IVT is a moron so really religion did have an active role in the mass killing.
My larger point, which is being lost in a storm of HITLER HITLER HITLER, is that religion has always been used to authorize cruel treatment of other human beings. The old testament has it, the new testament has it, and history is littered with the corpses of men women and children that someone's god wanted dead. In the grand scheme of things the involvement of the church in the holocaust is trivial and predictable; why would we expect any different from the organization responsible for pogroms, the inquisition, and the blood libel? And they're still at it, though now the focus is on the muslims who themselves are busy beheading an bombing in response to George Bush's Yee-had and the constant bombardment that Israel is dishing out to the civilians (and a few combatants) of Gaza. The common thread? And as mentioned, Darfur is now home to another honest-to-god genocide and relations between India and Pakistan are as strained as ever; their conflict isn't as well known but it contains some of the most shocking brutality you'll ever read about. So basically IVT can get fucked since he doesn't even understand his own religion let alone logic, history, or science. That's why there's a club.
Comments
I like the cut of your jib PhilB.
And this is where the thread becomes to a crashing halt because they can't advance their argument any further.
People are holding a belief, that in effect forces everyone else to belief it, because its a universal claim. How exactly then is the burden not on them?
So, I have to prove to them I'm not going to hell based on reasons I don't believe in? Its enough for me to say I don't believe, thus I'm not going to hell, because it does not exist.
How can someone prove that something does not exist? You can't prove that something doesn't exist, because there would be no proof to find. This does not work inversely, I don't have to prove that god does not exist, it's up to someone claiming it does exist to prove it's existence.
First off, I am pro-evolution, and i do not believe in religion at all, but....
everytime this debate comes up, its like a significant amount of the people on the side of science don't even know anything about science other than what they heard from the sour grapevine.
thats because science is an abstract concept and religion/god aren't. despite how much it may pain you to realize, religion / god evolved with us (ie religious people were selected for by natural selection in various cultures) to the point where even now its inherent to each and every one of us. wtf are you gonna say if a bear (or its arch nemesis: THE LION) gets all up on you? "OH lets go all you muscel cellz! convert dat gLOLcose into some 2x pyROFLvate and lets get CITRIC ACID CYCEL. DO IT UP BOIZ!" . shut up you'll be praying.
you can't just say its worthless, thats just showing your own ignorance in my eyes and probably the majority of our world. This "illogical" concept has driven our history to where we are now and probably will until we are gone from the face of existence. Its bigger than science and always will be. So show some respect
that said, I don't believe in the creation theory at all, cause you get hotter ladies when you all about the theory of origin :D.
I can say that God is an abstraction of David Blaine and chances are people will be offended. However, what about the other side of the spectrum? Atheists are constantly discriminated against, being called immoral, and unethical human beings that doesn't belong in a society. I find that offensive, but do you think religious people care when we pull the offensive card? Of course not. Even the bible condones killing us.
Also, why the hell would you be praying if a lion attacks you? That's a horrible example. The pilot responsible for landing the plane in the Hudson river wasn't praying, he was doing what he was trained for.
This pilot prayed, and look what happened.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/5043287/Pilot-who-paused-to-pray-in-crash-landing-sentenced-to-10-years-in-jail.html
Science is central to human progress, not religion. Religion did not bring us to where we are today. Religion was responsible for the dark ages, the crusades, witch hunt, inquisition. So yes, I am going to say that religion is illogical and useless. It enforces a dogmatic society and hinders scientific thinking.
hey now, play nice
if it wasn't for religion how could a 50+year old prophet marry a 9year old child? i mean think, what better get out of jail free card could u get!!!
furthermore, think of all the jews that would be running around if it wasn't for religion.
[/sarcasm]
well i guess its back to sensitivity class for me
http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:cms:item:southparkstudios.com:155210:
"We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. "
Richard Dawkins
Science has given us vaccination, indoor plumbing, condoms, cell phones, laptops, brain surgery, antibiotics, antiretrovirals, tylenol, adderall, DVDs, MP3s, TV, KY, and MOTHERFUCKING SPACE TRAVEL. The trade-off? Powerful weapons which almost no one would ever dream of using if not for religion. And the only defenses against those same weapons. You certainly didn't get to share your ill-formed ramblings with the general public through the power of prayer (though I encourage you to use this method exclusively in the future). Not if we can help it. The simple fact is that religion is no longer compatible with civilization. Jesus, Allah, Vishnu, and Jewish God were okay when they were the best we had, but now it's either us or them. A world without religion is not some joyless dystopia with no morality or beauty. Its the exact opposite. And even if we don't believe in magic, we can still look at the Sistine Chapel, and still listen to the mass in B minor and you can still read the Narnia books if you absolutely fucking must. All we have to lose is the superstition, the hatred, and our fear of the dark.
You are an idiot.
but I did say and he did say and what you quoted: and that was a reason to suggest it was caused by religion even if he is not christian or catholic.
I'll save you the trouble of posting a "no true scotsman" fallacy; they were real christians, probably more so than you in that their theology was more consistent. And even if their beliefs were a perversion of the original message, the fact that the message is open to such subversion conclusively dismisses the idea that religion is a source of morality. And even if it was, that wouldn't make it true.
Which brings us back to our original point: The simple fact is that science does everything that religion only ever pretended to do, and in fact does things the prophets never imagined. Curing blindness and paralysis and even raising the dead are routine procedures now. Science also revealed an entire universe that no religion even hinted at. Defend religion all you want, you owe far more to science than you ever will to any god.
Edit: What election was the pope trying to win? You can't write off the Church's voluntary involvement the same way. And in any case, the fact that it fucking worked is rather the point. Christianity was instrumental in building the Nazi regime, that's the whole point we're trying to make here. If people literally turn into fucking nazis because of your religion, your religion is evil.
and Germany was in the shit even worse than the USA is now. Hitler found a scapegoat in the Jews and used his charisma to turn people against them. It didn't make shit all of a difference what religion the people followed. Hitler suckered them in. Once the Enabling Act was passed, there was no stopping it.
Nazism had nothing to do with Christianity. The deal with the Vatican was to make the Pope get off Hitler's back.
I'm not sure if this is the first time, but I'm too lazy to check back through 10 pages of posts.
But let's say that IVT is right, and the entire recorded history of Christianity didn't happen. Germany was a very religious country at the time and somehow this religion failed to prevent the holocaust. So at best it's useless. Of course, history did happen and IVT is a moron so really religion did have an active role in the mass killing.
My larger point, which is being lost in a storm of HITLER HITLER HITLER, is that religion has always been used to authorize cruel treatment of other human beings. The old testament has it, the new testament has it, and history is littered with the corpses of men women and children that someone's god wanted dead. In the grand scheme of things the involvement of the church in the holocaust is trivial and predictable; why would we expect any different from the organization responsible for pogroms, the inquisition, and the blood libel? And they're still at it, though now the focus is on the muslims who themselves are busy beheading an bombing in response to George Bush's Yee-had and the constant bombardment that Israel is dishing out to the civilians (and a few combatants) of Gaza. The common thread? And as mentioned, Darfur is now home to another honest-to-god genocide and relations between India and Pakistan are as strained as ever; their conflict isn't as well known but it contains some of the most shocking brutality you'll ever read about. So basically IVT can get fucked since he doesn't even understand his own religion let alone logic, history, or science. That's why there's a club.