To take part in discussions on talkSFU, please apply for membership (SFU email id required).
Religious Protest
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080617/ap_en_ot/india_mtv_attacked
Various sikh attack MTV headquarters in India over a poster of a woman massaging a mans back.
Another example of "if you don't coincide with our religious beliefs (and therein, the moral beliefs) we will use violence against you"
Any thoughts?
Various sikh attack MTV headquarters in India over a poster of a woman massaging a mans back.
Another example of "if you don't coincide with our religious beliefs (and therein, the moral beliefs) we will use violence against you"
Any thoughts?
Comments
Since you have some sort of vendetta against all types of religion, Im not surprised that you would blame religion over this. This is much more of a cultural issue.
At least nobody was hurt.
Please realize that the religion is not at fault here. The abuser is responsible directly for the abuse.
oh but the Bible says....
yeah yeah yeah I know. But do you know what "death" means in that context? Not physical death, no. even righteous Christians die physically. Its spiritual death that the Bible talks about. The Bible also commands us to love everyone. Also it says that whoever doesn't love their neighbour doesn't love God. Is that bullshit too?
Ok got it?
Maybe your friend should confront his abusers about what happened. Just a suggestion. It really is a terrible situation, but i have no responsibility or guilt for it.
Oh but Christian wars have killed millions....
um...hello? Ever thought that evil people would use a good thing to justify evil? Christianity is not evil. But some bad people use it for evil. Maybe its not Jesus' fault? Ever think of that? Probably not.
I remember there being one incident where a North American actor kissed a hindi actor on stage at a show and the police got a warrant for his arrest cuz it offended most Hindus.
Religion is directly responsible for the abuses commited there in, not the abusers, when specific verses in the bible promote actual crimes and abuse. The ones against gay and racial minorities we have to interpret metaphorically, the ones against women are plain and simple.
"um...hello? Ever thought that evil people would use a good thing to justify evil? Christianity is not evil. But some bad people use it for evil. Maybe its not Jesus' fault? Ever think of that? Probably not"
Go back to one of my old posts, i specifically address this. if religion can be used to justify evil then it is a dangerous thing that should not exist, just as bad as nuclear weapons
But the majority of morals one has dont come from their religion, they come from living life.
.....Im not a religious person, but i certainly am proud to be a part of sikh culture.
Numbers, chapter 31, verses 17-18: "So now put every male child to death, and every woman who has had sex relations with a man. But all the female children who have had no sex relations with men, you may keep for yourselves."
"Isiah chapter 13, verse 16: "Their young children will be broken up before their eyes; their goods will be taken away, and their wives made the property of others."
" 1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent"
"1 Timothy 2:11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission."
"1 Corinthians 14:33b-34 As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. "
Deuteronomy 25:11-12 "If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity."
"Deuteronomy 22:28-29 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives."
"1 Corinthians chapter 14: Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonors her head--it is the same as if her head were shaven. For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil. For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man"
“ Deuteronomy 22:13-21…If however the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death..." Deuteronomy 22:13-21
there are hundreds more, took a look at genesis, it just irritates me people proclaim the virtues of their religion without even having read the bible.
I dont know how ANYONE who is female or ANYONE who is not a heterosexual white man can even be christian.
Now how many of those did you actually find without google?
I notice your sarcasm and dry wit always, but I sincerely hope you don't actually agree with them
ever heard of him?
what about the black deacon at my Church hhhmmm?
We have miniseries where people who are immigrants can get together and worship in their native language.
YOU go tell them that the Bible is racist.
Romans 13:8-10 Matthew 22:37-39 Notice it doesn't say "Love your straight, white, Christian neighbor as yourself"
you still haven't even bothered responding to my questions of treatment of women, how can you just ignore some passages and praise others?
better?
You know, its one thing to be atheist, but its another to go out of your way to trash religions.
also not all the passages i posted were in the old testament, so how do you defend those that are not?
OH and by the way, I actually talked to someone who isn't straight and I've told her what I think about it, and she is totally chill about it.
ok
you go that way and keep thinking that we are homophobic woman beaters -->
and i will go this way and live life peacefully <--
how's that?
i never once called you a woman beater, or a murderer directly
i have trashed your religion til the cows come home, and frankly, im unapologetic, your religion by default says the life i lead means im going to hell, where does your religion get the right to judge me by default?
the bible insults gays metaphorically, not directly, i will give that to you, its stupid assholes that extended that to hate gays, there, ive conceeded one point to you
the bible condones slavery, blacks were made into slaves with no problem of the church, it indirectly hurt minorities, conceed that to you, that its not directly in the bible saying enslave the blacks
if you believe that god made men first and that they are superior then thats your belief, its wrong, and its sexist.
the bible openly objectifies women and its not right, its disgusting as well, something youll never have to experience as a man, im not even a feminist and it makes me sick
**how does he get rep for anything??? he couldnt even distinguish between the old and the new testament as a religious man??
Anyways, I'm done.
if the end of your argument ends at "god did....." then its a pretty shitty argument, if you want to argue from a biological stand point why males developed before females im all ears, not cause god chose to make men first
While we're on the subject, the bible is a piece of literature taken way too seriously. There are many "oddities" in the old testament that people do not agree with now (reason why there is a new testament, no?). It's always difficult when critiquing literature from another time and place... you have to take in account the culture of that time and place. What is normal for us obviously wasn't normal for them, and what was normal for them is obviously not normal for us now.
I guess what I'm saying is that raising awareness of violations to human rights in the name of religion is something that has come 2000 years too late. Some religion has now been far too entrenched in certain cultures to the point that if you expect change, then complete annihilation of a peoples would have to be called for. This has been one of the reasons our government uses to brainwash our troops.
A good friend of mine was recently sent to Afghanistan, and I often disagreed with him over this "peace-keeping" business. He says he's going there to liberate the people from oppression. Oppression brought on by the culture and the religion the community is under.
It's easy to call yourself a hero when you're on the outside looking in. There are many complexities to the history of a culture or peoples. Who are we to judge any other culture than us? So we see some people in those regions suffering in the media and we feel sympathy and pain for them... but do we really have a right to insult a religion or a culture based on what we see from ALL THE WAY OVER HERE ACROSS THE OCEAN?
This is what pisses me off about activist groups in North America fighting for change for OTHER CONTINENTS. These groups often adopt a mob mentality and don't bother to educate themselves fully on what they are protesting.
It's a different story when the oppressed group of people themselves fight for change, because it's their oppression that they are living. What do we know of it? In most cases, protest from uneducated outsiders will only make the situation worst for those directly involved. Example, how many of the civilians that our peace-keeping troops are supposed to be protecting have died as a result of our involvement? And the Tibet incident? Foreign protest, especially ones from celebrities like Bjork, have only elevated tensions between China and Tibet.
History happens and it's useless to try to stop something you know nothing about. Leave it to the natives to handle their own business, and try to respect diversity.
randomuser, ur arguing about things that can barely even be called relevant in modern society, even though they are direct quotes from the bible.
When was the last time u heard of a girl getting stoned to death cuz she wasnt a virgin, say in vancouver. U probably havnt cuz ppl dont act out those quotes from the bible. Times have changed since jesus was around. Religion (other than Islam) has no power over ppl anymore. The government is what we should be worrying about.
If you really believe that religion has no power over people then you are as ignorant as they come. Especially if you think religion has no say over governmental policies.
Oh and guess what, people still do get stoned to death in other countries.
lazyguy you have no insight to anything I have said as well, guess what, I dropped the gay vs religion subject, and moved onto the women vs religion subject. IVT even said that god thinks men should be the leaders in dominion in society, so what should I go do, bake a pie? Sexism is still alive, as well as racism, unfortunately for you sexism is something you will never have to experience.
You can criticize me all you want but it doesn't aid at all in any dialogue, I really have nothing to say to you about your response =p besides what I've said above since you dont want to contribute anything meaningful.
Now I have to concur with the people above that this is really going nowhere when we're debating whos right and wrong, rather than having a discussion with arguments supported by evidence or reason.
Sexism would still exist without religion, especially with the intellectual revolution and the renaissance. The female sex came to be proven to be the weaker sex biologically. And sexism in the modern sense has been centered around biological sexism rather than religious sexism.
I agree that religion is still very much influential, even in government--but not in Canada. Canada is much too multi-cultural for that. Major Christian-themed political parties are found in the States. And there's no way to separate religious beliefs from our laws, as most of these laws are derived from the ancient beliefs. But at the same time, there have been many changes made to laws according to changing values of society. Equality of women and all other types of equality have been in our constitution since the 20th century now. Sexism only exists nowadays as personal beliefs--it's even difficult to find in Western Christianity.
Heh, Randomuser, just be glad you are Canadian than anything else. I grew up in Taiwan and as a girl in elementary school, we HAD to wear dresses. It was the dress code for girls. And in my family, I grew up as the one doing all the chores at home because it is the woman's duty. Sexism doesn't exist as much in Western culture as it does in many other cultures.
As for Islamic religion and its interpretation of the role of women... it's important to understand the religion itself aims to PROTECT the natural female role. It's an ancient religion that views females as the carrier of life, and thus should be protected from the outside world. Its purpose is honorable and this kind of thinking has been able to survive as long as it did before modernization hit Islamic regions. Personal liberty and equality is a new concept that came with the Industrial revolutions in the 18th century. More and more people under Islamic influence are looking out from their conditions to the west, and they see women walking freely in public, wearing whatever they'd like.
Islamic purpose hasn't changed, only their methods. Facing the threat of modernization, they feel that only drastic and violent action can protect the sacred female sex. It's not much different from an over-protective mother; her actions are harmful to herself and others, but her intentions are good.
So like I said before, when looking at a religion, especially one you cannot possibly be as familiar with as someone who's grown up with it, you should always take an objective view and look at all aspects before protesting it.
:)